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Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85436803/07/23 06:45 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2022 neprostoman old hand | |
 neprostoman old hand Joined: Jul 2022 | Did you consider 'dump' stats being 'dump' only because you chose them to be? What I mean is, aiming for high CON as a high elf fighter is venerable, but wouldn't aiming for high intelligence be better still? Even as a fighter? You don't need to solve everything by flexing muscles after all. A highly intelligent fighter is far more unique in my book than a try hard consitution-esque pretender of a fighter. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! neprostoman#85437203/07/23 06:53 PM | |
Joined: Jan 2022 Location: Czech Republic Edvin Black member | |
Edvin Black member Joined: Jan 2022 Location: Czech Republic | Originally Posted by neprostoman Did you consider 'dump' stats being 'dump' only because you chose them to be? What I mean is, aiming for high CON as a high elf fighter is venerable, but wouldn't aiming for high intelligence be better still? Even as a fighter? You don't need to solve everything by flexing muscles after all. A highly intelligent fighter is far more unique in my book than a try hard consitution-esque pretender of a fighter. Well, given the fact that multiclass is a very tempting option, as some class combinations will definitely be better than 12 levels in a single class, the intelligent warrior is definitely a viable option. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85437303/07/23 06:55 PM | |
Joined: Sep 2020 mrfuji3 veteran | |
mrfuji3 veteran Joined: Sep 2020 | I like the fact that certain races have ASIs. It adds flavor to the world and the races living in it. That said, the full +2/+1 is a lot and I wouldn't be too opposed if racial ASIs were reduced to a single +1 or maybe two +1s. The final ASI(s) could come from background and/or class which would allow all characters to start with 16 in their main stat, but only certain races could start with a 17. Orcs are stronger and can more easily reach higher values of starting strength. On the other hand, it should be harder for an Orc Wizard to start with 16 Intelligence. Alternatively, perhaps Point Buy should always allow characters to get a racial-adjusted score of 16 in a stat? A Gnome Wizard could start with 16 Str, but would have to spend a LOT of points to do so, reflecting hyper-focus on that stat at the expense of e.g., eating right, studying, or socializing. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! neprostoman#85437403/07/23 06:55 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2021 C colinl8 addict | |
colinl8 addict C Joined: Aug 2021 | Originally Posted by neprostoman Did you consider 'dump' stats being 'dump' only because you chose them to be? What I mean is, aiming for high CON as a high elf fighter is venerable, but wouldn't aiming for high intelligence be better still? Even as a fighter? You don't need to solve everything by flexing muscles after all. A highly intelligent fighter is far more unique in my book than a try hard consitution-esque pretender of a fighter. It would be annoying and complex, but if there were some way to motivate builds like that, it would be cool. Something like "this weapon ability is only available to characters with int of 12 or more..." I'm not recommending or suggesting that at all, but "sorry, your fighter is too dumb/ not dexterous enough/ whatever to do this cool thing" would be an interesting dynamic |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Edvin Black#85437503/07/23 07:00 PM | |
Joined: Dec 2022 Aurora42 enthusiast | |
Aurora42 enthusiast Joined: Dec 2022 | This is true from a general point of view, i agree sure orcs are generally more physically stronger then elves, and elves are generally more agile then humans... BUT... i would state that players is the exception from the norm, and a orc can be just as intelligent as a high elf, the extremes would be more or less equal between the races even if some races have edges in certain fields... In DnD one, this is the route we are going we have a choice no matter the race you choose to play you get to place a +2 and a +1, is it kinda boring, yes it is, but it opens up all races for alll classes and people doesnt feel like a idiot or that they gimped themself for picking a race that isnt optimal... Again, players isnt the norm, their the exceptional peak of their races... Each race still come with alot of racial feats, but that being said we are still playing 5e and stats are still tied to race, even if its going to change in DnD one ! |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85437703/07/23 07:06 PM | |
Joined: Jun 2020 Alodar enthusiast | |
Alodar enthusiast Joined: Jun 2020 | This picture, from PlayStation.Blog is impossible with our current character creator:
A Zariel Tiefling gets +2 to CHA and +1 to STR. Either what you're asking for is already in the full game or this is confirmation of Rolled stats. (If it is rolled stats it is an odd coincidence that this is still a 27 point buy with +2 in DEX and +1 in either INT or WIS.) |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Aurora42#85438003/07/23 07:12 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2021 W williams85 member | |
williams85 member W Joined: Jul 2021 | Originally Posted by Aurora42 This is true from a general point of view, i agree sure orcs are generally more physically stronger then elves, and elves are generally more agile then humans... BUT... i would state that players is the exception from the norm, and a orc can be just as intelligent as a high elf, the extremes would be more or less equal between the races even if some races have edges in certain fields... In DnD one, this is the route we are going we have a choice no matter the race you choose to play you get to place a +2 and a +1, is it kinda boring, yes it is, but it opens up all races for alll classes and people doesnt feel like a idiot or that they gimped themself for picking a race that isnt optimal... Again, players isnt the norm, their the exceptional peak of their races... Each race still come with alot of racial feats, but that being said we are still playing 5e and stats are still tied to race, even if its going to change in DnD one ! Why are feats ok, but not ASIs. What if my halfling wants the feats of a half-orc as well as the Stats? |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Aurora42#85438303/07/23 07:14 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2022 neprostoman old hand | |
neprostoman old hand Joined: Jul 2022 | Originally Posted by Aurora42 This is true from a general point of view, i agree sure orcs are generally more physically stronger then elves, and elves are generally more agile then humans... BUT... i would state that players is the exception from the norm, and a orc can be just as intelligent as a high elf, the extremes would be more or less equal between the races even if some races have edges in certain fields... In DnD one, this is the route we are going we have a choice no matter the race you choose to play you get to place a +2 and a +1, is it kinda boring, yes it is, but it opens up all races for alll classes and people doesnt feel like a idiot or that they gimped themself for picking a race that isnt optimal... Again, players isnt the norm, their the exceptional peak of their races... Each race still come with alot of racial feats, but that being said we are still playing 5e and stats are still tied to race, even if its going to change in DnD one ! So it is about people feeling like idiots... It means that some 'estimated majority' was in demand for a change and they made it. But it could all the same have been implemented for a 'loud minority'. Because I don't feel like an idiot while playing a tabletop game, for example. When I miss a bow shot or something. What comes next, weighted dice? Oh, wait a second... |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85438603/07/23 07:31 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2020 Gray Ghost veteran | |
Gray Ghost veteran Joined: Aug 2020 | I'm generally in favour of no set racial ability scores, but I'll point to Pathfinder 2e as a game where I feel they're done better (I think Pathfinder 2e does everything better than D&D5e). In PF2e, humans get two stat boosts to any stats, while every other ancestry (their term for race) gets two automatic stat boosts to set stats, one stat flaw to a set stat, and one free boost they can apply anywhere (plus any player can just choose to take the human-style two free boosts if they want). I think the free boost really takes the bite out of the set racial boosts since you can always augment your class's main stat. Not only that, but you also get to assign boosts more liberally, based on background and on class itself. Each class gives you a boost to their main stat, plus you get four free boosts as well. So I think all that really helps make it feel as though your character's stats are shaped by more than just their race. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Alodar#85438803/07/23 07:33 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2022 neprostoman old hand | |
neprostoman old hand Joined: Jul 2022 | Originally Posted by Alodar This picture, from PlayStation.Blog is impossible with our current character creator:
A Zariel Tiefling gets +2 to CHA and +1 to STR. Either what you're asking for is already in the full game or this is confirmation of Rolled stats. (If it is rolled stats it is an odd coincidence that this is still a 27 point buy with +2 in DEX and +1 in either INT or WIS.) Oh man I can already see the most boring in the entire universe min maxed 'guides' revelling in either stat rerolls or disgusting racial stat tuning for their filthy power gamery needs D: |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! williams85#85439003/07/23 07:38 PM | |
Joined: Dec 2022 Aurora42 enthusiast | |
Aurora42 enthusiast Joined: Dec 2022 | That is mitigated to a point in DnD one as all characters start with extra feats... You can do that in DnD one, with half races, you choose the race you want to have the stats from, and then you can have all the cosmetic flavour of both... so if you want to be orc/halfling, pick halfling stats and look like a orc... ;P Last edited by Aurora42; 03/07/23 07:42 PM. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85439103/07/23 07:46 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2023 Sansang2 member | |
Sansang2 member Joined: Jul 2023 | I've been lurking in this forum for months, but this discussion pushed me into creating an account. Not only I agree with OP, oneD&D agree with OP and hopefully (from the screen Alodar posted above) Larian agree with OP, but racial stats are just bad. Do races needs to feel different between eachother? Absolutely yes, but racial stats are the most boring and problematic way to do so possible. Numbers are boring. My Dragonborn isn't defined by having a bonus to constitution, they are defined by the ability to breath fire! My high elf isn't defined by being dexterous, but by his innate magical cantrips. In divinity elves had that amazing cannibalistic feature, and there is no amount of crazy stat bonuses that I would take over that ability. Racial stats not only are boring and say so little of our characters, but they are actually nothing more than an hindrance. Half orc druid? How cool is that? Sad that it's going to always suck compared to a dwarf druid, which honestly doesn't sound half as cool. As someone said before, players characters are unique, extraordinary. A common elf might be more agile than a common dwarf, but our character is not a commoner. Is a common drow evil? Yeah, but we also have Drizzt. Special people are just special. So what's the solution? Get rid of these old stuff that are racial bonuses and double down on actual features that can make races truly unique. ... because it's fun! |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85439303/07/23 07:57 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 Location: Liberec RagnarokCzD veteran | |
RagnarokCzD veteran Joined: Oct 2020 Location: Liberec | Originally Posted by Llengrath 20 strength halflings haven't been a problem for anyone so far. Thats very bold statement. And false one, concidering last debate about Racial Bonuses, that occured here like year ago. Originally Posted by Llengrath (starting with a 15 feels very bad) I believe stat rolling solves this problem ... I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85439403/07/23 08:11 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2022 neprostoman old hand | |
neprostoman old hand Joined: Jul 2022 | Yeah it seems like a touchy subject that extends far beyond 'just numbers' into things like immersion, common sense, role playing, storytelling, DMing and more. This whole free stats allocation thing feels like some sort of rule of cool treatment. This 'being unique legendary hero' argument is also weird, because every other NPC doesn't get to level up as they want, this alone separates your character from the rest of the world and shows their uniqueness as earned not as 'just because'. Having distinct races with their own strengths and weaknesses makes the world breath, imo. The racial bonuses show the comparative ratio of attributes between races, not a limiter for your character. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85439603/07/23 08:14 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2020 Gray Ghost veteran | |
Gray Ghost veteran Joined: Aug 2020 | Honestly if the main issue is racial integrity and identity then I feel like amping up racial abilities would fix that. Who really thinks about their stats in racial terms after character creation? Racial special abilities are things that you consciously use more often and actually can stand out. Much like what Sansang2 has said. In fact that's another way PF2e does better. There are whole bunches of racial feats you get, picking one at character creation then every handful of levels afterwards. Those make races feel unique far more effectively than some flat numbers. Also, welcome to the forum Sansang2! I hope this isn't the last we see of you! |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85439703/07/23 08:21 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2021 W williams85 member | |
williams85 member W Joined: Jul 2021 | I just think it makes much more sense that different races have different physical and mental strengths. and if that's not ok, why is it ok that they have other abilities and feats that are based on their physiology and mentality. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! neprostoman#85439803/07/23 08:22 PM | |
Joined: Dec 2022 Aurora42 enthusiast | |
Aurora42 enthusiast Joined: Dec 2022 | I sont disagree with this as a general normal statment, but i also think a a Orc could just be just as itelligent as high elf, its just less likely... and thats where this becomes porblematic, a fixed +2 makes it impossible to start as inteligent as a highelf, even if it was less likely... To make a comparison, to the drow example, their normaly evil, so is it sound to state they get a bonus to being evil, yet they can be just as good as any other race, or do you think drow should be limited from certain good alignments just couse their as a norm is more evil aligned andhas a (+2) at being evil... i like racials that define races at their core, for example all forest gnomes can speak with animals... and certain dwarves have a inate ability or affinity with rocks... or as that other poster pointed at from Divinity that Elves ate brains... I want to point out that, i personaly dont really think either way is wrong to play, i just prefer DnD one route more, why not have both, and if people want to roll their stats, let em, ts a single player coop game, im not going to dictate how people have fun lol ... |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85439903/07/23 08:22 PM | |
Joined: Mar 2020 KillerRabbit veteran | |
KillerRabbit veteran Joined: Mar 2020 | Originally Posted by Llengrath I hear you and I largely agree. Races should feel distinct and the features they grant should give them an identity. What I'm saying is that achieving this via ability scores is poor design in my opinion. I'm biased here due to my positive experiences with Pathfinder 2e where each race receives one "free" increase to any ability (which allows them to start on fair and equal footing compared to other options) and a list of unique racial feats to choose from. These feats give each race a lot of personality and made me realize that ability scores aren't necessary to achieve that feeling of unique identity at all - in fact, they're detrimental because they shrink your pool of viable choices. I'm not opposed to implementing racial feats. (although unlike @sangsang2 I hated DOS2's elves and, well, the rest of that world come to think of it) But you should implement a slew of feats before considering taking away the ability score increases; give before you take. Quote My other point is, this is already a thing in 5e. The dextrous and nimble halflings are small, But why are they dexterous? Sounds like the change would make some dexterous and some not. Quote The primal, graceful wood elves move swiftly and hide easily among forest foliage. And their close connection with nature makes them wiser than most. Please don't take that away from them. Quote And if someone wants to play a chonky halfling barbarian and not feel behind, why not? Indeed. And they can and they should; the DM should reward their decision to play against type by being generous with inspiration points and such for good roleplay. But - as I've said before - players want to break rules. The fun of playing against type goes away if the type goes away. And a halfling that is just short is a short human imo. Originally Posted by Sangsang2 Numbers are boring. Nah. I'm imposing a -2 on savings throws for uttering this heresy. This curse can only be lifted by restoring the paint on the DM's dice while contemplating the question "how did these oddly shaped number generators become the DnD's most recognizable symbol"? |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! neprostoman#85440003/07/23 08:22 PM | |
Joined: Jul 2023 Sansang2 member | |
Sansang2 member Joined: Jul 2023 | Quote other NPC doesn't get to level up as they want Actually, they kinda do. NPCs in 5e doesn't follow in any way character creation. I think you can go as far as finding some statblock where NPCs have access to some spells before their CR should allow so. An orc commoner in "Tales from the yawning portal" have 10 in all stats exactly as a human. Statblocks are designed depending on the narration they want to bring forward. Again, stats are just a numeric hindrance. Do you want to show that elves are great archers? Give them double range with ranged weapons. Want to show they are agile? Advantage in acrobatic. +2 to Dex adds more problems than what it resolves. |
Re: Please consider removing racial Ability Score Increases! Llengrath#85440103/07/23 08:22 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 S Staden journeyman | |
Staden journeyman S Joined: Oct 2020 | I personally hate the changes implemented in TCoE so I emphatically disagree with you. By removing the ability score improvements from the races you just make them feel the same, and the process of making a character, taking away benefits and disadvantages away from the races loses a lot of flavour. |
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